I can and do drive in the snow and ice with each of our vehicles.  To do so means one must be familiar with the vehicle and react to conditions as needed.
My question to you toad towing pro's is what about mountain passes and black ice and snow.  Do you carry chains and when do you use them?
What about shifting on downhills and exhaust braking when slippery.  
What kind of dificulties should I ecpect for the toad, is it better to seperate and drive the car?
I know most of you try to avoid this senario but we will encounter this at some point and forewarned is preferable.  We are in the NW and mountain passes every way we go and this is very limiting to early rallies.

Thanks much for the opinions.
Keith and Carol

Keith,
Most Beaver coaches do not have enough clearance at the rear wheels for tire chains. Running tire chains on these coaches can/will cause wheel housing and or body damage. So tire chains are not recommended on Beaver coaches.

If you do try to run chains, be sure to check carefully for clearance and keep the chains tight, because a loose chain requires even more clearance.

The best cure for ice and snow is to restrict your winter driving to nothing north of I-10.  

Gerald

Hi Keith,

I really don't want to chain our rig while heading south I-5 next week, if the pass "Siskiyou" looks bad we plan to head out to the coast Hwy 101 it add 2 days to the run.

FYI on I-5 at Siskiyou you must carry chains during winter. Here is a good link for pass reports http://www.tripcheck.com/Pages/RCMap.asp?curRegion=7&mainNav=RoadConditions

I've driven Monty Rae, by necessity, on snow.  Our coach handled surprisingly well, and, yes, the Explorer was being towed at the time.  We were trying to outrun a storm, but got stopped on I-70 in Wyoming for 5 hours while a massive wreck was cleaned up.  The storm caught us, but Monty Rae went into Rawlins, WY, in a couple feet of snow, turned around in the stuff in midtown, negotiated a hill to the town's RV park, and broke through several high drifts (no alternative), all in blizzard conditions at night.  

One time we drove on an icy road for a couple of miles in Burns, OR.  The road wasn't icy when we entered it, so we didn't know what we were getting into;  we were just trying to get to the casino to park overnight.  We stopped on the road to ask directions of a passerby, and when restarting afterwards, the coach tires slipped a bit, despite my cautious throttle.  I flipped on the ATC switch and easily got rolling again.  That switch must be used with discretion - it gives a little added torque to the slipping wheel set, but some degree of ATC is is always on even when the switch is off, and it probably shouldn't be flipped on while the coach is moving.  Once I had traction and had gone a few feet at a couple miles an hour, I flipped the switch off;  sudden traction attainment at speed could damage things.

The best deal is not to get caught in those situations, but sh** happens, and you need to be able to deal with things when they do.  Like driving a car, but perhaps moreso, minimize braking and use a very gentle throttle.  Going downhill is a slow and gentle process;  engage the exhaust brake at the top, selecting an appropriate retentive gear that likely won't require much service braking on the way down.  Don't negotiate turns at speed and never apply sudden throttle or brake.  If you stop and have trouble getting going again, hit the ATC switch to see if it helps a super gentle throttle get you rolling, than turn it off again once it does.

Like Gerald says, you really don't want to use chains on these coaches;  the potential damage isn't worth it.  Waiting out bad weather and roads is a much smarter option.  And Jerry's got the right idea - a detour down the coast may have stormy weather involved, but odds are it won't be in the form of snow or ice.  Besides, the NW coast during winter storms is an awesome experience all in itself.

-Joel  

We agree with Gerald.  I -10 is clear of snow. We are on it headed to New Orleans.
Joking aside.......having driven 1000's of winter miles for the Toronto Transit Commission I would not recommend chains. Good M&S tires properly inflated do fine. Definitley seperate the tow. If you are driving and it becomes quiet.....sure sign you are on ice.....just ease off ...put her in neutral so you do not get engine braking (relieves the torque on the rear wheels so front end doesnt lock up ).......and carefully brake to a stop. Wait for the plow and salter !!!
   As most of the weight in our coaches is at the rear end there is a definite risk that if you over do it you will end up doing a 180.........if there is room........  if you start going too fast use the snow banks to curb your speed!!!     Better head for the coast.
  We are headed to Baja Jan 27th for a 29 day Caravan........anyone else going? http://www.bajawinters.com./index.html      Jeremy and Jane  

Sadly, we are not in a position to full time yet.  It is 30 degrees here and dam-p so there is black ice to the east and to the west and those are the good choices.
Normaly the cold doesnt bother me but this year is that cold damp that gets to your bones.  For this reason I admit to harboring a touch of resentment to you folks on I-10.  Dogone you fellers anyhoot!
We are supposed to have the worse winter in 50 years here starting in January.  Is'nt that nice?
Thanks for all the input everyone.
Safe travels and Merry Christmas to all (God bless us everyone?)

Shiverin- Keith and Carol

Hi Keith

I read your quetion about winter driving with a lot of interest. We are planning on leaving the frozen north for warmer temperatures on about January 10 if the weather permits. Have driven our previous motorhomes in the winter a fair bit as we used them to go sledding but the Monterey is going to be a different game. Used winter tires on the old motorhomes but a gripped tire of any kind is not aviable in a size 295/80R22.5 to fit the Monterey. We also have no routes that do not have any mountain passes on them. Our route will be I-15 south to Nevada when we get to the US border. Its about 8 degrees here now and light snow. Have a day of moving snow just to get the motorhome out of its parking spot.
Enjoy your winter travels and drive safely.

Harvey & Marilyn Ziegler
2004 Monterey Newport
Cochrane, Alberta

We are in Bend, Or as I write this. Left SE Nebraska on Nov 24th and took 10 days to get to Bend. Temps between 15 degrees and 40 degrees most of the time.

In storms, we sit: hence the 10 days travel time.
Chains: Gerald is correct, you can't use them especially on our older 98 Patriot.
Ice and Snow: We do keep the dinghy hooked up: but,  this is what we do. If the road has ice, we never exceed 25 mph even though other vehicles will pass you like you are standing still. That's fine with me since I want to get there without a crash.
If we are traveling under 30mph and other vehicles are going much faster, we use the 4 way flashers.
When we approach to top of a hill where a downgrade is likely, I always have the exhaust brake OFF. I always gear down on the top of the hill. If severe ice or snow pack, I manually downshift to 2.  I avoid using brakes if at all possible.

The key thing is to pay attention to sun and shade. We traveled from Boise to Bend on Hwy 20 with lots of pockets of ice and snow. Most were in the shade areas. Learn to anticipate this and slow down in advance. When the road is  clear, we speed up. If in doubt, slow down.

Black ice is tough. Never drive over 15 to 20 mph if you must travel on black ice. Since you cannot see it, periodically test the brakes on a uphill area (or step on the accelerator and watch your speedometer) to let you know how slick it really is.  Black ice is terrible and the worst of all in my opinion.

I grew up in Nebraska and learned to travel on extreme snow and ice and this has really helped  a lot. I hope this helps some of you who have never traveled in extreme weather like we have in Bend, Or right now!

Larry and Grace Fritz

Thanks Larry and Harvey.  We wish you all safe travels and Gods blessing in your winter travels!
Gerald and others have noted that one cant use chains on our motorhomes.  Even semi trucks have to chain up sometimes.  SO, the question is what does one do when the signs change on the road and they now require chains?
I am not unfamiliar with snow and ice driving in trucks and cars.  Go slow, hang further back, start and stop slowly are all good rules to be sure.  Let the other traffic go is just as valid to be sure.  
I have never had to try to stop on a steep down hill pass that has new snow over black ice in a 30K pound rig.  Let alone a toad.  I can handle a slide in a regular vehicle fairly well but I don't relish sliding sideways in the Beaver.
No matter how hard you try to anticipate and prepare, stupid people do stupid things and usualy hurt people around them.
ie;
While in Centralia, WA one time there was a huge pile up on I-5 due to the worst fog I had ever seen that went on for miles.  I had ocasion to ask a driver why they were going so fast given the conitions and couldn't stop.  The response was "I kept speeding up because I couldn't see, and wanted to get through the fog faster".
There were serious injuries in the above example and I believe deaths.  These people were not among them.
If we get the winter they have predicted, even SoCal won't be exempt completely.  
Please use extra care this winter and we'll see you down the road.

Keith

"SO, the question is what does one do when the signs change on the road and they now require chains?"

The best offense is a good defense.  If you want to get to your goal, sometimes you have to wait until things set up better for you.  Unless the storm catches you stopped for hours on a freeway, like it did us, the best option is to pull off, preferrably at the nearest RV park, wayside, or rest area, and wait for days or weeks if you have to.  Been there, done that.  None of us should be in the position of getting surprised by the "Chains Required" roadsigns, because we're smart enough to own Beavers, belong to the BAC, and prudent enough to watch weather reports for days in advance.

-Joel

AMEN  -   TO JOEL COMMENT!

I dont want to belabor this thread but the number of and variety of ideas are interesting.  Thanks for all the comments!
Leah, you do some of the driving as well dont you?  Nice to hear from a ladies view point.
Joel, we were heading to California one spring and a late freeze with snow shut the pass down.  We got turned around at Canyonville which is (I believe) the last chance to turn around.
Given the story as you mentioned, I guess we add to the list of do's and dont's the idea that the fuel gague should never reach the half point for long.  I would hate to be stuck in a rest stop and not have enough diesel for the furnace for a few days.
I started a new thread just for stories like yours so you could fill in the gaps.  How about the rest of the story?
Keith

Keith-

Actually, one reason our Toad is a 4X4 is that it takes us where the coach can't, including in snow.  So if Monty Rae is parked by inclement weather, the Explorer, affectionately known to the family as "Pearl", takes us to relatives' houses, stores, restaurants, and, if needed, could ferry back a yellow can of diesel from the nearest Pacific Pride or other station.  In fact, Pearl acted as a drift buster once, handily clearing a path for Monty when I managed to get us into one mell of a hess.

I've told the story, sans details and in context with other subjects, once or twice here, so I'm not sure others want to hear it again in the story thread you're trying to get going.  But I have considered proving up a version with details, as it might make some points and help new owners of diesels realize what trouble they could get into, even when they're doing their best to avoid it.

It is Christmas week and my plate is full.  Plus I just today connected with a "long lost" cousin in Quebec who has tons of photos (my mother's grandparents) and family tree data heretofore unknown to my family.  As a hobby genealogist, that is like striking gold, so I have a hunch I may be even busier this week than I thought.  But you've tempted me, so if I can find the time I may try to provide some sort of cohesive tale.

Meanwhile, I can't be the only one with a "harrowing" story to start Keith's thread off with.  So get to writing guys.

-Joel

A few thoughts about this thread....

Both my wife and I were pilots for many years and owned several airplanes.  As a pilot, I have not gone many times.  I always said that the speed at which I traveled was time put into a bank.  Occasionally I had to make a withdrawal of that time when weather got in the way.  Perhaps that could be carried over to the motor home.  The comfort in which we travel could equate to the time I saved flying.  

I have never been happy when I have pushed the weather!

On the toad subject, I used to live at the top of a windy six mile gravel road going up a mountain in Colorado.  My wife can probably remember a few more, but I remember spinning out three times in the 13 years that we lived on it.  One time was with no tow (4wd).  There was no damage except to my ego and my reputation with one of my daughters.  

Another time it was with a snow mobile trailer in tow (4wd) with my wife's brand new machine on board.  It was really interesting to watch in the rear view mirror as we spun around.  It reminded me of the game crack the whip.  The tow vehicle was tough so no damage when the trailer hit it.  The trailer tongue was bent and the new machine, which was strapped down securely, was fine but somewhat trailer shy after that.  

The last time was in my pickup (4wd) with our Jeep Grand Cherokee in tow.  I had come down our steep and slick driveway onto the road.  I did not want to brake coming down the hill and I just never got control of the rig before the first sharp curve (read drop off).  I really was not going that fast and it all, as usual, happens almost in slow motion.  I was lucky and just bent one arm of the tow bar.  A quick call to Blue-Ox, a couple of hundred bucks and I was back in business three days later.

The point I am trying to make is that if you tow, you are adding additional risk.  Should you happen to spin out in the coach alone, there is a possibility that you might come out of it unscratched.  If you spin out while towing, I will almost guarantee that you will damage something.  It also greatly increases your profile when you are sideways in the spin thus requiring a much wider roadway for you to get away with it.

I find that about the only way that I know that I have broken traction on my Beaver is when the tach catches my vision.  That in its self is pretty scary.  

One last thought is that all of my problems were in 4wd vehicles.  Most of the vehicles I saw in the ditch in Colorado, and there were hundreds, were 4wd.  Driving a 4wd vehicle can be an invitation to get into trouble.

Hey Joel, that sounds like a GREAT Christmas present.  Let us know how it goes!

Bruce, Good insight especialy about the tow vehicle.  Good story too, it even sports a "moral" to the story.  How about one like it for the other thread on driving stories?
Yup, that 4WD can be a blessing but is not to be taken for a final answere.   It's just another tool for driving slowly.

Keith

We came through the Siskiyous on Thursday and found the trip very smooth no ice or snow! Timing is every thing this time of year.
We have stopped to spend Christmas in Bakersfield, and have found a new Parking spot that is really nice its the Bakersfield RV Resort located on Wible Road exit 21 heading south on 99.
The spots are mostly pull through with hook ups in the right spots, pad are concrete, if you need service the Camper World is just across the street.

That is a very nice resort Jerry. My wife and I have stayed there a couple of times. We just drove down ourselves from Eugene, OR to Fillmore, CA on the 11th of December. We also were fortunate to have good road thru the mountain passes. Our home is in Alaska but we leave our Beaver stored in Eugene and fly down in the winter to get it south and live in it. I work a 2 week on / 2 off schedule so my wife stays with the coach and I travel to Alaska and back for work every 2 weeks. Anyway glad you're having a safe trip. We are headed to Indio next time I fly down on January 5th. My wife is in Fillmore spending Christmas with her family right now. Nothing like having your home with you wherever you go. Merry Christmas to you and hope to meet you on the road somewhere.  

We are hoping to head out for warmer weather conditions from the frozen north of Calgary, Albeta this week. Plan was to leave on monday but is snowing and blowing today so will attempt to leave on Tuesday.
There was one question that was not answered in the earlier posts on this topic and that is what do you folks that travel the roads in the northern portions of the country in the winter do about the roads that have a requirement to have your vehicles equiped with good winter tires or carry tire chains. A fair number of the roads here have that requirement & I believe that I have seen signs with the same requirements in Montana. I will be carring a set of tire chains but do not plan on traveling when the chains will be required to be installed.
Temperatures today are -17 C with a north wind of about 30+ MPH.

Harvey & Marilyn Ziegler
2004 Monterey ISC 350
2010 Jeep Wranger Unlimited

The proposed weather for the coming week for Oregon and Washington from the coast to the east is not pretty, Harvey and Marilyn.  I empathize with you;  my cousin, Doris, in Calgary, often writes of her weariness from the long winter there, and longs for her old life and mild weather near Victoria.  My mother often told of the severe winters growing up in a sod home on the Alberta prairie.

If you leave as planned, you will likely end up holed up somewhere for awhile.  I guess if you have snow tires or carry traction devices you meet most states' requirements.  But since snow tires in our size aren't readily available, and most of us would rather not actually risk damage to our coaches from chains, we opt to just not travel when the chances are good we'll need to put them on.  I think you will find "traction devices required" signs in snow-hazard areas of all western states, and given the anticipated midweek weather, the Bulls will be looking to see that you actually have them on in any passes that remain open at all.

Starting for Snowbird Country this late can be a crapshoot, but as pointed out in an adjoining thread, there are weather maps that can give you fair warning.  Personally, I like the online weather predictor, HAMWeather.  It has proven itself exceedingly accurate from my point of view, and has been spot-on for mountain weather for the several years I've consulted it.  You can see a prediction for places on your projected route for as many as 15 days ahead.  http://www.hamweather.com/ .  Just enter in their search field the zipcode or local area you want the weather for, and choose option tabs as needed.

In your shoes, I'd wait for the Canadian Cold layer to recede back out of the states a bit before venturing out, but that's just my 2 cents, and you are used to driving on snow all winter.  Although I've driven coach and toad in snow and blizzard conditions, and have experience and confidence with other vehicles, I'd not deliberately put Monty Rae, toad, and family in jeopardy because I was in a hurry to get to warmer weather.

That said, if you still opt to venture forth, there are state transportation department camera systems in place, accessible online, where you can see what you might be getting into.  For example, Oregon's Tripcheck feature is at http://www.tripcheck.com/Pages/RCmap.asp?curRegion=0&mainNav=RoadConditions.  If you are thinking I-15, then this Idaho feature will prove most helpful: http://hb.511.idaho.gov/main.jsf, as will this Alberta information site: http://www.ama.ab.ca/road-reports?old=/road_report.jsp?menu=ea_road_report , and this Montana site: http://www.mdt.mt.gov/travinfo/.

-Joel

Thanks Joel for the web sites to vivit to check weather and road conditions. Still sitting at home and watching the weather. Furnace is getting quite a work out in the coach as it is mostly loaded and ready for travel. Quessing that we have burned 50 gallons of diesel this past week as the warmest it has gotten to during the day is about 0 degs F.

Well, keep your eye on those websites and take your shot when the window of opportunity opens.  The weather in the Northwest radically changed last week and is now unseasonably warm, so that flooding is the issue now.

-Joel